The title says it all, ranged combat is bugging me. To be more precise, backing up bugs me. You see, in Notrium and the current Driftmoon the most efficient way to fight your enemies is to fire at them while running away. That’s a surefire strategy, if your enemy doesn’t have a ranged weapon he can never get to you, and even if he does he’s going to get killed chasing you. In Notrium I didn’t see this as a problem, it fit into the atmosphere of running away from alien hordes. But in Driftmoon it just doesn’t feel right.
In first person shooters you can always back away and shoot, but it’s not a problem there. You move slower backwards and you can’t see behind you, so you’ll eventually bump into something. In Driftmoon I’m not sure if I can make the player move slower backwards – backwards doesn’t really exist since you’re looking at the game top-down. I could make the player move slower whenever he starts ranged combat, but moving slower is usually very frustrating in games, and I’d like to avoid it if possible.
One option I can think of is reducing aim when moving, or possibly disallowing reloading when moving. Using a bow or a crossbow you’d have to reload after every shot, so that would count to a lot. What do you think? How can I turn the running away strategy into something that’s fun to play?
Well, generally, when you hit your enemy with an arrow or crossbow bolt, you don’t need to back away… because your enemy is dead. That is, when you hit a human aw-wright…
) of ranged weapon that can be opposed only by hard armor and tough hides.
. But balancing melee vs ranged is always difficult, I’ve already said that.
Your foes in Driftmoon aren’t mostly humans as far as I’ve seen in preview, so… the problem:
1) when the enemy dies from 1 “missile” hit – close combat sucks
2) when he/she/it does not and you can move backwards shooting – close combat sucks again
3) when he/she/it does not and you can’t move backwards shooting – ranged combat sucks (that is, actually, when you’re alone vs multiple foes, not obligatory attacking at the same time – simply the effect of masses takes place – you’ll eventually run out of health, healing potions, arrows/bolts etc.; when you have a shooting party, the turning point comes at surrounding melee-hordes – good luck then)
4) when he/she/it does not and you can move backwards shooting but not as fast as your chasing combatant – ?
Maybe a hit-or-not chance can be based on target’s speed/dexterity, so trying to hunt down a human you get probability of 1) AND:
a) having a bow may give a chance for more shots
b) having a crossbow increases damage and range but slows down reload so you may have no 2nd shot at him/her/it
Further on, hunting a quicker prey you can:
a) miss more often because of hard times aiming precision
b) see creature’s fear so it quickly hides or runs away
c) have little to none chances of second shot whatever the case, even backpedal can’t help
On the other hand, tough but slow enemies may be harrassed over and over sending arrow after arrow jumping around them.
All this implies:
I. No movement penalty, only reload times difference.
II. Chance-to-hit mechanism, relying on your skill, sight, weapon quality and enemy’s skill, experience, speed/dex, whatever
III. High lethalness (dunno if such word exists
…
Maybe something else. It makes it all so complicated, so I personally don’t like what I just said
lol This is the exact same problem I’ve been having.
I just simply redused the accuarcy of the player when moveing but it still doesn’t feel right. I hope you find a solution
I remember doing a little test a while back with ranged attacks against enemies that move faster than the player. I’m fairly certain the AI couldn’t hit me even when I didn’t shoot them. So right now (right now meaning the first preview version, I’m not sure if it’s been fixed later) you can be pretty much unkillable while running away.
For reducing aim the best option would be to make it near impossible to hit enemies while moving (unless you’re higher level, maybe). If the player still has a decent chance of hitting the enemy they’ll probably just spam the attack until it works.
Making the player slow whenever in ranged combat would be kind of annoying but could work, especially if the player has a reduced resistance to melee type attacks so they are encouraged to switch from ranged if an enemy comes near them.
What about running while reloading, but stop and stand to aim and shoot? It only needs a short time, then you run again. That way, you become a bit slower, have a chance to run away, and a chance to hit…
I guess the idea is, you can only run full speed into the direction you’re looking at. So if you shoot to something behind you, you’d have to turn around, which slows you down.
Its hard to make it you can only run full speed in the direction ure faceing as the current(I dont know about the new one) movement system there is only 8 points of movement. I’ve been haveing this problem for a while now and trying to do that just doesnt feel right. Because ure goinf slow in almost every direction.
Well, in my opinion shooting while running is something that makes archery overpowered. I would see the solution in player having to stop while aiming and shooting – losing accuracy while running is actually quite a good thing how to encourage this. Or(which would be similar to the realtime turnbased games like BG or KOTOR or whatever based on d20 system) autostop running character when ranged attack order is issued. In dnd based games character has to stop for ranged attack, which gives him one attack for half movement points that round(number of attacks are increasing with more levels and ranged weapon proficiency).
This would be quite an elegant choice for Driftmoon, too. From what I seen in the prewiev, it is essential for gameplay to change weapons depending on enemy and situation. So if you had to change beetween ranged and melee to be most effective in combat, it would be probably a good thing. And I think that by having to stop for a clear shot, player would be encouraged to do just that.
Idea of slowing while in combat seems a bit retarded in realtime bird-wiev rpg. Why should my charcater slow down while he is carrying a bow when enemies are near? It would be kind of okay if it were good scripted and ocured really only when actively attacking, but still it would be strange. Maybe having the character slow more depending on angle beetween running and aiming directions – but even then I would find it a bit frustrating(and it would probably lead to players making dive attacks againts enemies, which would be also a bit retarded)
Great feedback everyone! I tried slowing the player down again in various ways, and it felt all wrong and awkward. It just didn’t fit into the top-down perspective. I was thinking about the reloading/aiming schemes for up until now, but they all seemed too complicated.
Then I saw the clean and easy solution from Lu Mong. It’s as simple as that, you can’t move if you’re shooting, and if you move, your shooting stops. I’ve played a lot of RPG’s, and I never realized most of them do it like this. I was too engrossed in how Notrium works. The solution fits into the new combat system nicely.
If/when I ever get to working on Notrium again, the ranged combat problem still exist, since this stopping solution works only for RPG style combat. But I’ll leave it for now.
It is true. For Notrium, this style would really take much fun out of it. A lot more suitable for Notrium would be changing rate of fire and accuracy a bit when running and perharps making some kind of magazines which would have to reload(after some shots) by standing still. This is system used by a lot of survival shooters like Crimsonland. But again, it would spoil the transparent gameplay Notrium has. In Notrium I actually like the fact that run-and-shoot tactic is so effective. It makes the game more fast-paced without losing the oh-my-god-they-are-everywhere feeling. Plus in Notrium, this tactic is somewhat limited by hunger and temperature, because of which you cannot run forever.
Maybe you can implement a way so that the player can do 2 things at the same time. If you are shooting, you need a small time to charge, thus the enemy can get closer. The closer the enemy, the greater to-hit chances get, but eventually the enemy will hit you. Also, after shoot, you are still in the same position for futher shots. Thus when your are in this position, say, “grounded” for lack of a better term, it takes a moment when you get ready to run off.
Maybe you could shoot and move if you are riding a horse or such, but you should recive a great accuracy penalty (Even if the player is a expert at doing so.
Say, like the arabian horse archers of middle ages).
Also consider the equipment necesities, as equipment can greatly affect combat.
During the war of the 100 years (or so is called in Spanish, I mean the war that made Joan de Arc famous) the English archer forces had light/no armor, and were relatively fast, and skilled. However, literally useless at close combat, since they barely had a dagger or knife for close range, which was often not enough.
The footsoldiers in contrast, were desinged for close combat, and their armor was heavy and strong. This reduced their speed, which made them vulnerable to a deadly shoot; so, many shoots and a good skill was able to take them down, but their armor saved them more than once, and if they could get in range, they could take down entire groups of enemy archers.
Oh, I did not notice what Lu Mong had already come up with a similar solution. Sorry Lu Mong!
Its sad when u have to reply to ure own comment.
Its good to see we found a sollution.
(Also have people noteced because this isnt an “update” kinda thing the number of comments has gown downnnnnnnn.
Make enemies naturally move faster than the player, and have him stop to reload. There’s my 2ยข.
Or… Just thinking a bit more… make it so the player can only take one step at a time while in range mode.
Hey guys, not sure if this idea was thrown out yet because I haven’t had time to read through all of these. But how about sort of an aiming bar? When you click to attack and such a bar comes up with the word “taking aim” and once this is full the arrow is fired. This goes along with pulling out and notching the arrow. So the thought for this is if you’re moving, maybe the bar could fill slower depending on the speed at which you are moving, or it would even stop completely if you’re stats are not good enough. I hope this helps as much as my thought on food, good luck!
-Nico
Thanks for all the replies!
My current thinking is to go the way of other RPG’s, where the ranged combat plays a support role. So when using a bow you’ll have pretty much no chance against opponents charging against you, but you’ll be glad to have a bow when your friends face the enemy in melee. Or if you’re alone you can get one or two shots in before having to switch to a melee weapon.
Seems like a good idea. Looking foward t see it in the game.
Well, you shouldn’t make ranged combat support only – ranger should have chance to kill powerful enemies if he is skilled enough. I think the best idea is to make player stop or slow down while reloading. That will make ranged combat still capable, but if you miss, you will have to engage enemy in melee. That requires more skill and is quite realistic (you couldn’t reload crossbow or bow while running), what is more you shoul be able to travel with your bow/crossbow ready to shoot.
make the enemies stronger and faster , and reduce damage of ranged weapons
sure , you can backwards and fire , but they outrun you and you have to use a meelee weapon
My two-cents.
In Notrium the ranged combat was less of a problem, as the ranged weaponry was less complex. Well, the weapons were more complex, but the skill required to use them was down to ‘point and shoot’. Ideal for firing over one’s shoulder while running for one’s life. Bow and arrow? Magic missile? Not so much.
-Draw and Fire mechanism. Power and accuracy gauges. Click and hold LMB to draw and gain power. Movement is slowed, and instant accuracy reduction to 30%. When stationary, gain x% accuracy per second. Release LMB to fire. Maybe continually lose accuracy while moving as well, or some stress/exhaustion/accuracy tie in? Kneeling/Standing differences?
-Narrow field of vision when aiming. Soldat has a rather elegant solution, but it is only effective when sniping. There the camera focus is shifted ahead and away from the player character, increasing vision range, but greatly reducing situational awareness. I would say something like the Super Metroid scan visor wedge, would be more appropriate. Increased brightness/visibility along the target path, balanced by drastic loss of visibility around the character. This would work best tied with some sort of drawing/aiming mechanism, so that the time spent in reduced vision mode per shot is maximized.
-Equipping time cost. Large item, off hand penalties. 1 second for each penalty. Same for the shield. 4 seconds total to swap between them. Arrow for sword swap is nearly instantaneous. For magic, um… well, maybe magic requires different chants? Might take a few seconds for the right magics to heed your call.
-Make considerations for impact angle. This increases importance of hitting the enemy straight on, while they are relatively stationary, as glancing strikes become less damaging.
-Tripping. Moving while aiming and you are bound to trip ever now and again. Inelegant perhaps, but it certainly makes you think twice with a golem on your heels.
Thanks for the ideas Cevgar! My current plan includes the equip time cost. I might consider the others for Notrium 2, as they’re perhaps more action oriented.
Hmm… The sniping idea is kind of cool. It could really enhance the game experience if made properly(for few chosen skills/abilities).
Yeah, I wanted to make use of Notrium’s Looking Glass + Sniper Pistol to make a Sniper Rifle some time ago. With the effect described
. It really matches rather well, I just don’t care about Sniper Rifle since making Sniper Bullets is such a headache in Notrium right now…
While it may be slower to calculate you could use the sides of a bounding box to detect which side a ‘creature’ is being approached from. Like, give certain bonuses from hitting the side or back of an unaware creature. You could also emit a sort of arcing line of sight from the ‘front’ of the bounding box. Basically what I’m saying is if you want combat to not be entirely run and gun you need to limit and reward the player for the taking the extra effort to sneak up on enemies. On the same leve, the player could take extra damage in the back, and having the sides, front and back being calculated for damage might actually present a good way to divide up any armor that is planned. I just get the feeling this game would do better with a more stragetic battle system like Magebane had rather than trying to take the generic and often poorly concieved action game approach. Have you thought of possibly introducing combat as a sequenced event like in Fallout?
Well the current plan is to move from the more Diablo action oriented combat to a more strategic nearly turn based type of combat pretty similar to modern western RPG’s, such as Baldur’s Gate or more recently Dragon Age.