Here’s the latest plan for combat:
- Clicking on an enemy will start combat. The characters will take turns to deal blows to each other. This is very similar to modern western RPG’s, such as Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age.
- In combat you can choose to use special melee skills. You can learn these as the game progresses, probably from certain people (zelda style) or from leveling up.
- Total damage dealt is taken from the equipped weapon, so you still have an incentive to use bigger weapons. Using melee skills you can choose how to distribute the damage from the weapon, giving you a strategic benefit.
- Skills may be scripted using the Driftmoon scripting language. The system could easily be used for magic as well as combat.
Some possible skills:
- Berserk attack, deal plenty of damage to the enemy, but take some as well.
- Stun, enemy loses next turn.
- Swirling attack, damage to everyone around.
- Fire attack, time based damage.
- Concentrate strength to next attack.
- Armor piercing attack.
- Weaken enemy’s shields for next attack.
- Reflect next attack.
- Block next attack.
So that would give you a fair bit of melee strategies. Also giving a different set of skills to enemies will make them different and perhaps more interesting to fight. If you have any new skills to add, and I’m talking about actual combat skills and not magic, I’m quite keen on hearing your ideas. 
For balancing, I’m thinking of a system where it would automatically make the less frequently used skills less expensive. Any thoughts on that?
I think they are all great ideas.Nice work!
Will there still be an option to do real time? The fast-paced, hectic combat was one of my favorite parts of Notrium, i’d be sad to see that go.
I do not think so… Ville already said that the combat will be more melee-based, thus this automatically makes it slower.
How fast would the less frequently used skills become cheaper? Noticeably within one or two battles or over longer period? What if I use all skills equally or always use the same one?
Cost of skills could vary depending on the enemy and/or each use of skill could up or lower other skills cost by a bit depending on how well they would work together also some skills should get cheaper depending on whether player has low or high health. Weather and amount of light should also have an effect.
How many “bigger” weapons do you plan to have. Will we be changing our weapon to clearly shinier one every hour just because that’s how things work or can we keep using the first proper sword we find as long as it’s in one piece? Will the first weapon we get be 1/100 of how strong the best weapon will be?
Modding notrium like combat in will be easyish I hope.
One thing you could do is make the more powerful attacks available as follow-ups from the weaker ones. For example, a shield bash could give the player a split-second opportunity to select a more powerful sword slash. Depending on how fast you need to select the attack, and how the attacks are selected in game, this could make for a good combat mini game.
Also, Notrium-like combat is a must for people trying to make shooter mods.
Answering your question, Ville, the fatigue system usually covers what you have said. The increasing with levels (or whatever) number of endurance points makes less powerful attacks cheaper automatically, you just have to throw in some more fatigue-expensive skills with levels (or whatever again). That’s a pretty common approach.
Also, are the turns’ lengths all-equal? I mean, if you fight 2 enemies, and lend a blow to one of them, both will make a move right after that? I can recall the system in rogue-like ADoM that used character’s speed (dependant on race, Dexterity, …) to make turns’ lengths uneven: when your fast character fought slower enemies, you could sometimes notice yourself making 2 moves and only after that some enemy’s response.
If I got that idea of yours, wouldn’t fights with more than one enemy over-killing many PCs? The idea of Driftmoon originally had in mind more epic (than surviving) style combat, did it change?
Good point Venom, though with the automatic balancing I’m talking more of balancing within the same player level. But I don’t know if that kind of micro-balancing is called for, so the inter-level balancing might be enough.
On second thought I will probably not turn to actual turn based system with dealing blows, rather I’ll use the current system where the weapon choise affects combat speed. That will of course make the skills where I’m talking about turns mean seconds.
@Redemption: I’m thinking with this system we’re going for a more strategic, slower pace of combat than the previous Diablo style. That would mean timing button presses might not fit into it. Sounds like a nice idea for the Notrium style combat if I make that later, some kind of combos could be useful for that.
@Endymion: I think there will be about ten levels to weapons, but I haven’t decided on that yet. The end and the middle parts of the game are still a bit of a blur to me, I know what I want for the plot there and what kinds of areas there would be, but I haven’t written down much yet. Which way do you prefer by the way? A few weapons that have some differences, or Diablo style with different weapons coming every minute?
As for modding in the Notrium style combat, I think it should be possible at some point, if not at first. I am hoping on using it myself, so there’s no reason I wouldn’t do it sooner or later.
So, any favourite skills anyone?
I also don’t know how that kind of micro-balancing is called. But when a character gains new skill, s/he may not be quite effective with it at first. After several uses the player character gets enough hold of it and uses it without initial restrictions (may well be lowered fatigue if talking about a system I proposed)
isnt that skill levels?
As far as I understand, the skill levels involve investing skill points in later levels. What I’m talking about is a way to make skill cost less over some usage time. I’m not sure if such a way was implemented anywhere, just throw in random thoughts about it.
Yes VenoM_31 that system was implemented in rogue-likes; the more the player uses a skill, the more he/she/it becomes proficent in it.
Yeah, but what I’ve seen in rogue-likes was the long and thorough use of some skills to make it “better”. What I’m talking about is almost the same idologically but played differently. ‘Tis lowering down some good sides of a new-learnt skill as it is “inefficiently” used at first (or raising up some negatives, like stamina drain), and comparably fast become “normal” (and no longer gain anything) with use. You may ask, what it gives to the game system… Well, not much, I must admit
. Just proposing for some realism as everyone lately is so keen about.
Not much? It would actually be interesting because, in most games, you just buy a new movement and you want to try it out with the first guy that dares to fight you. If you are not a master at such skill, you will first try it out will less powerfull enemies and then (when you at “normal” level) you use it´s “full” potential…
I prefer fewer weapons with somewhat logical and understandable reasons for why one of them is better than other.
I’d do different weapon levels so that there are:
Normal weapons that can get or be rusty and have three or four possible levels of long-lasting enchantments
Simple magic enchantments that make any kind of weapon burning, poisonous, electric or icy for a few days
Few kinds of mass produced weapons with custom properties for certain groups of people(like guards, assassins, monks and some exotic race).
Weapons with gem slots(or not, would be lot simpler without this one.) that can be equipped with different kinds of gems that improve the weapon in some way with the cost of something like player’s hunger, health, stat points or fireflowers.
Some custom weapons(or gems) with their own stories and unique properties.
And then finally blessed weapons that are specially enchanted and made for each user and slowly drain health of any strangers attempting to use them unless unenchanted(so player can get one and marvel at how lovely they are before he gets his own).
There should be weapon breaking skill that might break weaker weapon if attackers are strong enough or disarm the combatant with clearly lower strength. It should happen in normal combat too in extreme situations like two very strong guys fighting with rusty weapons.
I’d have to be against weapon breaking in general. It’s just annoying in a game if my weapon breaks.
However, medieval swordfighting manuals do describe how to disarm an opponent by grabbing his blade. A move that could be pulled off if one does it quickly and with confidence, but a hesitation could cost fingers. If this weapon is either dropped or added to the inventory of the one doing the disarming, i’d be fine with that.
Then again, shields are pretty much consumables to a medieval warrior, so it would make sense if those break. Counterpoint to that, it’s still annoying as hell. It worked really well in Mount & Blade, which had separate travel & battle maps. A shield would break in a battle sequence, but not permanently – it just reappears each battle, whether or not it was broken last time. I’m not sure how or if that would work here.
Some notes:
The Berserker one could perhaps lower defense instead of doing outright damage? It just doesn’t make sense that i would receive damage even if i wasn’t hit with anything.
Also, “reflection” and “stun” would be magic things, then?
Otherwise, everything mentioned is pretty logical if presented correctly. A shield bash would probably not actually hit the enemy, but it would block his vision, so it would have stun-like effects, a stab would have more armor piercing power, a feint could lower the opponent defense for the next turn, etc.
Of course, i sure hope that isn’t a total list of powers in the game. More is always better!
Also, i’d be a big fan of tiered powers, KotOR or even D&D (ie. “cleave” and “greater cleave”) style. It’s just a lot of fun to continually work on a skill, IMHO, rather than just gain it and then that’s that.
I have lots of ideas for weapons but that would be a longer post with links, so i’ll make it in the forums.
Uh, “make it in the forums” as in “make it WAY later in the forums”.
The list won’t certainly be just that, I’m hoping to get ideas for more skills. I’m just looking at some basic ones, so I know what kind of an implementation I need. I’m basically turning the whole weapon system upside down, previously the weapon determined what attacks could be made with it, now the attack is the one using the weapon.
I like tiered skills as well, though making the later ones overpowerful is a risk with that. I’ve recently been playing Dragon Age, and I did like the skills available there. The more advanced skills did more than just adding 10% to the previous level – they actually had new functions.
New functions… good. That would actually give a player enough incentive to “buy” the skill.
Otherwise it can happen like in many games, -that since the “next level” only gives like 10% or 5% improvement the player rather buys a new skill than improving one he/she/it already has.
Mmm… For ranged weapons?
Sniper: Higher accuracy and slight damage bonus. Movement penalty.
Shooter: Slight damage bonus and more movement allowed. Accuracy penalty.
Fast-Shoot: Faster shoots; slight accuracy and damage penalty.
For melee attacks:
Rampart: Same as Berseker, but does slightly more damage and does not takes damage if it hits. You should not be able to use this if your armor is to heavy; additionaly, it makes you more vulnerable during your attack (Thus a fast stab from another enemy would do you some serious damage).
Fencing: Attemps to block another sword-like weapon with said weaponry (provided you have a sword or likewise). Practically useless with other tipes of weapons; but cheap to adquire. A good level of Fencing should be able to block an enemy´s thrust.
Thrusting: Another sword-like based attack. Does good damage if the enemy is not well-defended; also, it reduces your defence slightly during attack.
Bash: Attempts to stun the enemy, althrough in a more “primitive” way. Practically you can use any hard stuff (rock, hammer, etc.) to attack an opponent (preferably an opponents head), however damage strictly depends on the weapon (and maybe no damage is done at all if your “weapon” is too weak).
For in-combat movements:
Evasion: Attempts to evade an enemy´s attack. However it reduces your defence considerably; so if it fails it would only give the enemy an advantage.
Charge: Push hardly against your opponent; does great damage, but it greatly reduces your defence, too. Also during it defencive equipment such as shields are less effective, and maybe useless at all.
Guard: Attepmts to block an opponent´s attack, or at least reduce it´s damage. Any defencive equipment such as shields or helmets are more effective if you use this; however your attack power reduces considerably, like 50% or so. Same to evasion chances.
I have been thinking ville; why also not to make “combat stances”? I mean, the previous movements could be converted to “Offensive”, “Defensive” and “Evasive”. Thus each “stance” gives a specific bonus an a penalty… Maybe equipment could also affect it?
!
It´s just an idea… Well you are the game´s designer ville, you decide what to do next
Nice points there, DRL! If I were Ville, I would’ve asked some professional fencer and fighter to help with knowing the melee fights’ metadata. If you don’t want to spend years to balance out all system (like Blizzard had to do with Starcraft), you may just want to make fights close to the real ones. [Also in case of failure, you may claim you achieved realism
]
Thanks
. That would actually be a good idea because the victor in a battle with these skills would be the one with the best skills, compared to the standard “more expensive stuff is best” aproach which many games have.
Come to think of it, ville said that the “now the attack is the one using the weapon”. I agree completely, but of course some types of weapons work better for a type of attacks than others. Like I said, Fencing could be done with any “sword-like” weapon, but I think there should be a bonus if you use a weapon “specific” for the skill. I mean, a fencer with a dagger can be effective if his skill is good, but a fencer with a rapier would be far more effective…
Thanks for the list DRL! I’m still interested in hearing more, even some weirder ones, or cooler ones. Some skill you’d be really glad to get at some point because it’s so cool.
I’m probably not going for realism, since basically we’re dropping realism the moment we have things like hit points and fast healing. I’m going for a pretty simple system that can be easily understood, and allows for many different strategies in combat.
In my opinion, about the skills, one option would be:
Have some basic melee skills everyone has(like some from the list DRL gave), get some more from leveling up, and have some major, but unusual skills Zelda style(like 3 or 4?) that would be used only in certain situations, and perhaps, even make you able to do some things that let you advance in the game hence forcing to get some/all in the course of the game to clear an obstacle or such. No idea what such skill could be though, lol.
Then there is the possibility that you get a few weapons instead of skills(still speaking about the Zelda style), and more diversely much like in Ocarina of Time: You can use the Biggoron sword(big 2h blade) to deal alot of damage, but you have the master sword(1h), which you can use shield with, and which in this game could allow you to do some ‘combos’ with both a shield and the 1h sword. But my point is that the other one is much better than the other in some situations. Then, if they were skills rather than equipment, there would be all the other fighting skills that you get from leveling, which would be better than those two others in some situations.
…. Just a random thought. And sort of messy one, too.
Actually, I like the diablo style as seen in the preview rather than mine.
But I’m quite sure that I will like the output of Driftmoon even if the combat system turns out worse. Hopefully it will be better, though
I just thought up a way that you could do magic attacks/archery:
there would be two different stages of combat, distanced and close quarters. if you initiate battle with distanced att, then the AI would respond accordingly (a giant rat would either run away or just charge while an archer would take cover and return fire). If you get close to the AI (or vise versa) you switch to CQ and your attacks become sword thrusts and shield bashes.
in this way you could walk up to a wizard and attack him but he would stun you and run back a bit so he could shoot fireballs and lightning at you. you could either try to beat him up with Close combat where he would just stun you more (wizards rely on their skills not their tools) or you could pull out your own wand/bow and have a skirmish going on. this would be good for simulating character personalities,an archer would be content to stay at a distance, a knight, not so much, but maybe a troll would stay at a distance for a bit to throw some rocks at you before charging.
The only problem i can see with this is when there are some enemies who charge first and some who stay back, it would be hard to fight the ones staying back.
Thanks mmKALLL! I’ll probably go for something like you described, some skills being necessary to win the game, but you’d get them from quests. I’ve always liked the loot gathering process of RPG’s, so I’m probably going to stick with most skills working with most weapons you can get, so I can’t tie anything important to weapons in particular.
@Spoons: I’m pretty much right in the middle of trying to figure out the ranged combat in the new combat system. At the moment I’m thinking it could be exactly like it was in the preview for the player, and the AI would obviously need some better tactics. The problem I’m facing with both the player and the enemies is that you can run away indefinitely, and if the archer is faster at running away, he can best anyone coming after him.