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Virginia Tech Massacre!

LunaticNeko 17 years ago

MASSACRE in VIRGINIA TECH,
33 KILLED in one incident!

<a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6560685.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6560685.stm</a>
<a class="postlink" href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6561313.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6561313.stm</a>
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.vt.edu/">http://www.vt.edu/</a>

A shooting rampage broke out at Virginia Tech, at least 33 students and teachers were killed. The dorm and the classrooms were raided and killed by just one person who committed suicide later.

Idiota 17 years ago

Yeah, heard it on the news. I suppose there's only one place on the globe where that crazy stuff happens. (No offense)

Zombie 17 years ago

You DO realize that, the further back we go in time, the more casualties per day (in general) there were? Also, more people died in wars back then.

You do also realize that world population was much smaller then too, right?

Funny how the more people there are, the more double-digit numbers of casualties seem to sting the general public. Triple-digits are just massive. I mean no matter when you consider that 33 people are approximately 0.0000000055% of the world population, we have plenty more people where that came from.

The earth is overpopulated as well. Very much so past comfortable living limits. Perhaps all of this insanity and all of these natural disasters are results of the planet trying to lessen human population to a more acceptable quantity.

Idiota 17 years ago

Suggesting that nature actually drives people insane to start killing other people? I'd more expect this from some god figure, who I don't believe in. Nature's cry for help is severe, but insanity like this isn't her doing. It's just insanity.

Shingo 17 years ago

I'd also be much more inclined to believe that human stupidity is to blame for such incidents, in that it produces environments which can drive an individual or a group of individuals to commit such acts. However, such an act also requires an individual of a specific type. You can submit a sizeable group to the same treatment and only a fraction of them will possess the potential to commit such acts.

The Gemini 17 years ago

Well what did you expect to happen, USA? When the majority of your people have loaded guns lying around in their houses, it is extremely easy for slightly unstable persons to do suchs horrible massacres. This is your society's fault, your own mess.

Idiota 17 years ago

It's not right to insult people from the USA who most likely totally and wholly agree with that opinion, Gemini.

It's so damn sad. There are guns lying around everywhere in town, and still they blame games for these things. I mean... Sheesh? Why are those damn yanks still calling themselves superior to Europeans? Last I heard was 33 people got shot in the US. I wonder when the US people start doing something about it, because their country is speeding down to it's crashing point with lightning's speed.

Crazy 17 years ago

"Zombie" said:
You DO realize that, the further back we go in time, the more casualties per day (in general) there were? Also, more people died in wars back then.

You do also realize that world population was much smaller then too, right?

Funny how the more people there are, the more double-digit numbers of casualties seem to sting the general public. Triple-digits are just massive. I mean no matter when you consider that 33 people are approximately 0.0000000055% of the world population, we have plenty more people where that came from.

The earth is overpopulated as well. Very much so past comfortable living limits. Perhaps all of this insanity and all of these natural disasters are results of the planet trying to lessen human population to a more acceptable quantity.

"One death is a tragedy. One million - a statistic."

-Lenin

Amarth 17 years ago

"Idiota" said:
There are guns lying around everywhere in town, and still they blame games for these things.

I haven't heard a lot of game-related talk for this one, yet. Apart from Thompson, of course, but I think no-one takes him seriously anymore. We can only hope the press doesn't pick up.

Crazy 17 years ago

"Amarth" said:
"Idiota" said:
There are guns lying around everywhere in town, and still they blame games for these things.
I haven't heard a lot of game-related talk for this one, yet. Apart from Thompson, of course, but I think no-one takes him seriously anymore. We can only hope the press doesn't pick up.

Apparently this one is being rolled on immigration and how it is much more difficult for immigrants to live, work & study in the US. The shooter was, if i remember correctly, a Korean that moved to the US at age eight.

Looks like the scapegoat convention is going to be left alone this time. But, ofcourse, this is only a fairly fresh incident.

Binky 17 years ago

I've read about it on a few news sources: WCCO said that 21 people were killed and the Star Tribune(Minneapolis paper) said that 32 people were killed. I also heard that another source said that 33 people were killed, it was rather confusing.

Amarth 17 years ago

First reports said 21. Newer sources claim 32 + the attacker who commit suicide, thus 33 deaths.

Shingo 17 years ago

First of all, we don't just sit on our arses and do nothing whilst people are shot. It's mighty fine for you to tote the fact that an American is more likely to own a gun than most anyone else. Do we give guns to just any old person? No. We perform thorough background checks and stuff, have an age limit, etc.

Secondly, of course there's more crime and on a larger scale in the US than say..... The Netherlands. One of the reasons for this? Because the Netherlands isn't as big as more than half of our states. Less space means you need a much smaller police force in order to impose order. Secondly, your culture is relatively stable whereas ours is constantly in a state of flux due to the "Mixing pot" of thousands of different unique cultures brought here by immigrants each day. Add to that the fact that there's some people who are intolerant bastards, and the fact that even some of the wealthiest country in the world's population is in poverty, and then we have motivation for such crimes.

Is it a tragedy? Yes. Do I enjoy this being blamed on the US and cited as one of the reasons we're going down the drain and such? What do you think.....

Amarth 17 years ago

Sorry, I don't take all of this.

"Shingo" said:
Secondly, of course there's more crime and on a larger scale in the US than say..... The Netherlands. One of the reasons for this? Because the Netherlands isn't as big as more than half of our states. Less space means you need a much smaller police force in order to impose order.

That is why there are such things as crime 'rates'. It basically compares the amount of criminals to the amount of people. I'd like to point to this resource, describing the ratio of murders per inhabitant. Obviously, the US isn't the worst, but it's still way too high.
If you think area makes a difference, I say not. I could think population density plays a role, but the other way from what you describe: more people living together would imply relatively more crime. Because of the anonymousness of the city. I don't claim scientific value in these points, more like gut feeling.

Secondly, your culture is relatively stable whereas ours is constantly in a state of flux due to the "Mixing pot" of thousands of different unique cultures brought here by immigrants each day.

You think the USA is having more immigrants than, say, The Netherlands? Really, think again. In the USA, people are shot when trying to illegally immigrate. Legal immigration is almost impossible with the current Bush administration. In Western Europe, they are coming from Africa AND Eastern Europe, and we have no such crazy immigration policies. The barrier for immigrants to enter is a LOT lower here. And don't claim historical backgrounds. I don't know a lot about the USA, but here in Belgium we had extreme influxes of immigrants in the years '50 because we had work in the coal mines we needed them for.

Add to that the fact that there's some people who are intolerant bastards,

Those are everywhere. I redirect you to here.

and the fact that even some of the wealthiest country in the world's population is in poverty,

There, I agree. Your social security system is completely broken in my eyes. Then, that is the choice your government has made - libertarianism instead of socialism in a too extreme form IMO.

and then we have motivation for such crimes.

Meh. A statement like that is dangerous. Sorry, I don't take all of this.[quote="Shingo"]Secondly, of course there's more crime and on a larger scale in the US than say..... The Netherlands. One of the reasons for this? Because the Netherlands isn't as big as more than half of our states. Less space means you need a much smaller police force in order to impose order.[/quote]That is why there are such things as crime 'rates'. It basically compares the amount of criminals to the amount of people. I'd like to point to [url=http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita]this resource[/url], describing the ratio of murders per inhabitant. Obviously, the US isn't the worst, but it's still way too high. If you think area makes a difference, I say not. I could think population density plays a role, but the other way from what you describe: more people living together would imply relatively more crime. Because of the anonymousness of the city. I don't claim scientific value in these points, more like gut feeling.[quote]Secondly, your culture is relatively stable whereas ours is constantly in a state of flux due to the "Mixing pot" of thousands of different unique cultures brought here by immigrants each day.[/quote]You think the USA is having more immigrants than, say, The Netherlands? Really, think again. In the USA, people are [i]shot[/i] when trying to illegally immigrate. Legal immigration is almost impossible with the current Bush administration. In Western Europe, they are coming from Africa AND Eastern Europe, and we have no such crazy immigration policies. The barrier for immigrants to enter is a LOT lower here. And don't claim historical backgrounds. I don't know a lot about the USA, but here in Belgium we had extreme influxes of immigrants in the years '50 because we had work in the coal mines we needed them for.[quote]Add to that the fact that there's some people who are intolerant bastards,[/quote]Those are everywhere. I redirect you to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Van_Temsche]here[/url].[quote]and the fact that even some of the wealthiest country in the world's population is in poverty,[/quote]There, I agree. Your social security system is completely broken in my eyes. Then, that is the choice your government has made - libertarianism instead of socialism in a too extreme form IMO.[quote]and then we have motivation for such crimes.[/quote]Meh. A statement like that is dangerous.

Crazy 17 years ago

Secondly, your culture is relatively stable whereas ours is constantly in a state of flux due to the "Mixing pot" of thousands of different unique cultures brought here by immigrants each day.

20 to 30% of Estonian people are Russian. Welcome to the former Soviet Union.

bwansy 17 years ago

In my opinion, the main cause of this incidence is that everyone can have a gun, and there is a popular belief that violence is the best way to solve any problem. As a foreign student in the US as well, this is what I observed after interacting with many of them. (Actually "interacting" means having fierce debates. Luckily there were Europians, who are also pacifists, on my side.)
The attacker, though a Korean in blood, had been living in the US since a young age, thus may have already been polluted by the violence culture in US.
The fact that he kiled so many peolple is because unlike previous attackers, who were Americans and knew only shooting at everything that moved, he planned this attack for so long time, and kept calm throughout the process.

Cejer 17 years ago

Ah, the joys of moron debate. The most frequently sighted and poisonous of an internet forum's fruits.

Interestingly enough, NationMaster does not support Amarth's conclusions. First, it says, very clearly:

"Total recorded intentional homicides, completed. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population."

Next, the source of their data states:

"The statistics cannot take into account the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in various countries, of the different methods of tallying, etc. Consequently, the figures used in these statistics must be interpreted with great caution. In particular, to use the figures as a basis for comparison between different countries is highly problematic."

Additionally, regarding Idiota's and Gemini's beliefs on gun control, there is no evidence on a correlation between gun availability and homicide rates. Indeed, although I regrettably cannot cite a source, I recall interviewed police officers mentioning that the vast majority of firearm homicides occur with illegally obtained firearms. Additionally, although I am again without a source, I have heard that "child" firearm-related death rates are created by including 18-25 year old males as "children."

Also, unless a drastic reorganization of the US or the UK occurred within two years, the United Kingdom has considerably more income "inequality." So quit calling the kettle black, mister pot.
Although, income inequality is not the same as unfair incomes. That would fall under the term, "income inequity."

I'm not even going to touch immigration, as it's far more complex than I believe you could understand.

Piaget theorized that few people actually developed to the point where they could think logically about abstract ideals such as good and evil. Every passing day adds evidence to his theory.

In short, I think you're all stupid. Yes, I'm flaming. I apologize for my harshness. I don't think your opinions mean a thing. You have no evidence for your accusations. And I wish you would fix your own problems before looking over here. This thread should be for expressing sympathy, nothing more.

For that reason: If anyone related to victims of the shootings at Virginia Tech is still reading, I offer my heartfelt condolences. I will be praying for you. Ah, the joys of moron debate. The most frequently sighted and poisonous of an internet forum's fruits. Interestingly enough, NationMaster does not support Amarth's conclusions. First, it says, very clearly: "Total recorded intentional homicides, completed. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population." Next, the source of their data states: "The statistics cannot take into account the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in various countries, of the different methods of tallying, etc. Consequently, the figures used in these statistics must be interpreted with great caution. In particular, to use the figures as a basis for comparison between different countries is highly problematic." Additionally, regarding Idiota's and Gemini's beliefs on gun control, there is no evidence on a correlation between gun availability and homicide rates. Indeed, although I regrettably cannot cite a source, I recall interviewed police officers mentioning that the vast majority of firearm homicides occur with illegally obtained firearms. Additionally, although I am again without a source, I have heard that "child" firearm-related death rates are created by including 18-25 year old males as "children." Also, unless a drastic reorganization of the US or the UK occurred within two years, the United Kingdom has considerably more income "inequality." So quit calling the kettle black, mister pot. Although, income inequality is not the same as unfair incomes. That would fall under the term, "income inequity." I'm not even going to touch immigration, as it's far more complex than I believe you could understand. Piaget theorized that few people actually developed to the point where they could think logically about abstract ideals such as good and evil. Every passing day adds evidence to his theory. In short, I think you're all stupid. Yes, I'm flaming. I apologize for my harshness. I don't think your opinions mean a thing. You have no evidence for your accusations. And I wish you would fix your own problems before looking over here. This thread should be for expressing sympathy, nothing more. For that reason: If anyone related to victims of the shootings at Virginia Tech is still reading, I offer my heartfelt condolences. I will be praying for you.

Pete 17 years ago

Well, that was cold.

Amarth 17 years ago

"Cejer" said:
Ah, the joys of moron debate. The most frequently sighted and poisonous of an internet forum's fruits.

Ah, the troll, the one I should not reply on, but well...

Interestingly enough, NationMaster does not support Amarth's conclusions. First, it says, very clearly:
[blahblah]

"I" said:
I don't claim scientific value in these points, more like gut feeling.

Additionally, regarding Idiota's and Gemini's beliefs on gun control, there is no evidence on a correlation between gun availability and homicide rates. Indeed, although I regrettably cannot cite a source, I recall interviewed police officers mentioning that the vast majority of firearm homicides occur with illegally obtained firearms.

Note: the one has nothing to do with the other. There can be a majority of illegal firearm homicides, while still being correlated with gun availability. And all of this stated without sources. Yay.

Additionally, although I am again without a source, I have heard that "child" firearm-related death rates are created by including 18-25 year old males as "children."

Relevant... how?

Also, unless a drastic reorganization of the US or the UK occurred within two years, the United Kingdom has considerably more income "inequality." So quit calling the kettle black, mister pot.

Anyone from the UK in here? Didn't think so. Still, I kinda agree here, this is just a choice made by your government - while I don't support it, it is not necessarily a strictly better or worse way of handling things.

Although, income inequality is not the same as unfair incomes. That would fall under the term, "income inequity."

I fail to see your point here, but that's probably just a lack of vocabulary. Excuse me.

I'm not even going to touch immigration, as it's far more complex than I believe you could understand.

Thank you for sparing us, oh omniscient being.

Piaget theorized that few people actually developed to the point where they could think logically about abstract ideals such as good and evil. Every passing day adds evidence to his theory.

How ironic that you say this.

In short, I think you're all stupid. Yes, I'm flaming. I apologize for my harshness.

How very... non-Christian. "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her." Anyway, I suppose I have to agree I'm flaming, too. Let me add that I don't intend to reply to whatever else you have to say.

I don't think your opinions mean a thing. You have no evidence for your accusations.

First, they're not accusations. Quit feeling attacked. Second, I highly doubt there is a lot of reliable information floating around on the internet, if at all. Research around such phenomena is very controversial. You can always find some point to attack, if breaking things down is what you like to do.

And I wish you would fix your own problems before looking over here.

Ahaha. No. Look around you, keep an open mind. I'd rather discuss (and fix - if I could) the problems in your country, or in Darfur, than the minor problems around here. And the one does not exclude the other.

This thread should be for expressing sympathy, nothing more.

For that reason: If anyone related to victims of the shootings at Virginia Tech is still reading, I offer my heartfelt condolences. I will be praying for you.

Well, I can only join you there. [quote="Cejer"]Ah, the joys of moron debate. The most frequently sighted and poisonous of an internet forum's fruits.[/quote]Ah, the troll, the one I should not reply on, but well...[quote]Interestingly enough, NationMaster does not support Amarth's conclusions. First, it says, very clearly: [blahblah][/quote][quote="I"]I don't claim scientific value in these points, more like gut feeling.[/quote][quote]Additionally, regarding Idiota's and Gemini's beliefs on gun control, there is no evidence on a correlation between gun availability and homicide rates. Indeed, although I regrettably cannot cite a source, I recall interviewed police officers mentioning that the vast majority of firearm homicides occur with illegally obtained firearms.[/quote]Note: the one has nothing to do with the other. There can be a majority of illegal firearm homicides, while still being correlated with gun availability. And all of this stated without sources. Yay.[quote] Additionally, although I am again without a source, I have heard that "child" firearm-related death rates are created by including 18-25 year old males as "children."[/quote]Relevant... how?[quote]Also, unless a drastic reorganization of the US or the UK occurred within two years, the United Kingdom has considerably more income "inequality." So quit calling the kettle black, mister pot.[/quote]Anyone from the UK in here? Didn't think so. Still, I kinda agree here, this is just a choice made by your government - while I don't support it, it is not necessarily a strictly better or worse way of handling things.[quote]Although, income inequality is not the same as unfair incomes. That would fall under the term, "income inequity."[/quote]I fail to see your point here, but that's probably just a lack of vocabulary. Excuse me.[quote]I'm not even going to touch immigration, as it's far more complex than I believe you could understand.[/quote]Thank you for sparing us, oh omniscient being.[quote]Piaget theorized that few people actually developed to the point where they could think logically about abstract ideals such as good and evil. Every passing day adds evidence to his theory.[/quote]How ironic that you say this.[quote]In short, I think you're all stupid. Yes, I'm flaming. I apologize for my harshness.[/quote]How very... non-Christian. "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her." Anyway, I suppose I have to agree I'm flaming, too. Let me add that I don't intend to reply to whatever else you have to say.[quote]I don't think your opinions mean a thing. You have no evidence for your accusations.[/quote]First, they're not accusations. Quit feeling attacked. Second, I highly doubt there is a lot of reliable information floating around on the internet, if at all. Research around such phenomena is very controversial. You can always find some point to attack, if breaking things down is what you like to do.[quote]And I wish you would fix your own problems before looking over here.[/quote]Ahaha. No. Look around you, keep an open mind. I'd rather discuss (and fix - if I could) the problems in your country, or in Darfur, than the minor problems around here. And the one does not exclude the other.[quote]This thread should be for expressing sympathy, nothing more. For that reason: If anyone related to victims of the shootings at Virginia Tech is still reading, I offer my heartfelt condolences. I will be praying for you.[/quote]Well, I can only join you there.

The Gemini 17 years ago

"Cejer" said:

Additionally, regarding Idiota's and Gemini's beliefs on gun control, there is no evidence on a correlation between gun availability and homicide rates. Indeed, although I regrettably cannot cite a source, I recall interviewed police officers mentioning that the vast majority of firearm homicides occur with illegally obtained firearms. Additionally, although I am again without a source, I have heard that "child" firearm-related death rates are created by including 18-25 year old males as "children."

The society of the USA have a sick obsession of guns. No matter if its legal or not, a gun is still a gun, and the USA are overflowing with it. It is even a constitutional right to bear them! When a large part of the population says they have to have guns to protect their families, and when gunrelated homicide per citizen is ten times as higher as any other nation in the world, I think that points out that the USA really have a major problem, and you won't solve them by throwing all the criminals behind jars.

Oh, if my last post was too cynical, I have to condolize to the victims. It's just that I am truly sick of all the stupid things USA stands for and does.

Idiota 17 years ago

Guys, just knock it off, both sides. No need to smash the US government into the ground, and no need to discuss this at all. Tragedies are tragedies, but I'm not going to change my stance one bit. You see, back here, it's really quite hard to get a gun. In fact, I don't know a single person who has a gun in his house. Chances of acquiring a gun illegeally here are much much smaller than in a country that has guns laying around pretty much everywhere. You see, in here, it's much easier to control the illegal deals of guns. Why is that? Because no one is allowed to buy them legally, no one can sell them illegally. It's that simple.

Like I said, tragedies are tragedies, and I feel sorry for those killed, wounded, and those forced to be witnesses of these acts of violence. But chances of such a thing happening in here are much smaller.

On to another point: Cejer, although you've proven yourself many times to be superior in a discussion, it doesn't mean that we are inferior to you, so don't make it sound like we are. Your stance in all of this is most likely fed by your desire to scold us all for not even saying we're sorry for the victims, which I didn't do, somehow. That was stupid of me. But in this discussion, you're point of view is highly irrealistic, and you haven't the slightest clue of how immigration works here.

@Shingo: I'm going to say the same thing to you. You don't know how many muslims we have living in our country. Hell, we even have government paid muslim television. People from all over the world are migrating here, just as they do to the US. I think that if a country succeeds in making muslims live in a Christian country (which we still are), then you have achieved something.

@Amarth & Cejer: I understand what pissed you off, but no need to flame eachother on any occassion. We're a close community in here, and flaming in this discussion was utterly unnecessary. You may both guess what I said to who.

Lastly, if you want to say you're sorry for the victims, please do. I will not allow further continuing of this discussion or flaming. Guys, just knock it off, both sides. No need to smash the US government into the ground, and no need to discuss this at all. Tragedies are tragedies, but I'm not going to change my stance one bit. You see, back here, it's really quite hard to get a gun. In fact, I don't know a single person who has a gun in his house. Chances of acquiring a gun illegeally here are much much smaller than in a country that has guns laying around pretty much everywhere. You see, in here, it's much easier to control the illegal deals of guns. Why is that? Because no one is allowed to buy them legally, no one can sell them illegally. It's that simple. Like I said, tragedies are tragedies, and I feel sorry for those killed, wounded, and those forced to be witnesses of these acts of violence. But chances of such a thing happening in here are much smaller. On to another point: Cejer, although you've proven yourself many times to be superior in a discussion, it doesn't mean that we are inferior to you, so don't make it sound like we are. Your stance in all of this is most likely fed by your desire to scold us all for not even saying we're sorry for the victims, which I didn't do, somehow. That was stupid of me. But in this discussion, you're point of view is highly irrealistic, and you haven't the slightest clue of how immigration works here. @Shingo: I'm going to say the same thing to you. You don't know how many muslims we have living in our country. Hell, we even have government paid muslim television. People from all over the world are migrating here, just as they do to the US. I think that if a country succeeds in making muslims live in a Christian country (which we still are), then you have achieved something. @Amarth & Cejer: I understand what pissed you off, but no need to flame eachother on any occassion. We're a close community in here, and flaming in this discussion was utterly unnecessary. You may both guess what I said to who. Lastly, if you want to say you're sorry for the victims, please do. I will not allow further continuing of this discussion or flaming.

Zombie 17 years ago

Gun control REDUCE homicide? Don't make me laugh. That is highly unproven and speculative. Most, if not all people, in the USA have butcher knives in their homes. Does the easy availability mean that people are running rampant, stabbing each other? If we ban all butcher knives, will that even dent stabbing-related death rates? I doubt it. It's shortsighted and simplistic opinions like yours that convince me that nature probably has a hand in ramping up natural selection a bit.

Don't tell me nature couldn't affect things like human sanity. There are plenty of things, including atmospheric content, that can cause you to act very different even if just slightly altered. Nature can also affect our moods greatly, sometimes giving just that little push to make you stress. Nature has a lot more control than you thing, and the planet somehow manages to balance a lot of very important variables while other variable that rely on them are constantly changing and fluctuating. Yes, I'm theorizing. Then again, I think that is all we can do on this topic for now.

Anyway, back to gun control. I bet you if everyone had a gun of their own, was trained to use it, and was trained on what to do if you are unarmed and you are attacked by an gunner... Well, I bet you that many Americans would be a lot more respectful. Increasing availability of guns, gun information, and gun-related training would better arm EVERYONE, including people who want to defend themselves and others. Would you know how to properly and accurately fire a pistol? The average American tends to "learn" how from movies, which show improper and unrealistic methods and information.

Acting as if guns are inherently bad is acting as if every knife is made for stabbing someone in the face seventeen times after brutally taking advantage of them. Guns are tools, just like anything else. How they are used is reliant on their user. You can choose to shoot in offense or shoot in defense. You can choose what to shoot at and what to shoot. Did you know that you can get various kinds of nonlethal rounds for standard bore guns, and they can be fired without modification to the gun. You do not have to shoot to kill, ever. Extremity shots are often excellent deterrents and ways to incapacitate a violent person.

If everyone learned about guns when they were young and were properly educated about death and life and all of that fun stuff, I bet you we would have a safer world... Or at least a safer country. Why? Well, the violent groups and gangs tend to be in the minority. If a guy tries to hold up a bank and every patron pulls a handgun out and aims at him while the teller levels a shotgun his way... Well, I bet you that guy will back off. Either that or he will be taken down.

Think about it this way: Violent gun-toting psychopaths know how to use guns. Do you? If you answered no then you need to learn about guns. Go to a shooting range and fire some pistols and rifles. It's education. Banning guns does not remove them from existence. As long as they exist, it is far safer to make sure everyone can use one and realizes the ramifications of doing so. Maybe, as a part of your schooling, you should get shot once in a nonlethal area. I am fairly certain that that would further aid everyone in thinking before they act when it comes to guns.

Remember that knowledge is power. Separate yourself from guns and you separate yourself from proper knowledge of them. I doubt anyone who intends to use guns to harm people would follow the rules as well as you when they intend to break rules by harming others.

Who wants to bet that if every student in VT had a gun and had basic training with it, that gunner wouldn't have been able to kill all of those people? Gun control REDUCE homicide? Don't make me laugh. That is highly unproven and speculative. Most, if not all people, in the USA have butcher knives in their homes. Does the easy availability mean that people are running rampant, stabbing each other? If we ban all butcher knives, will that even dent stabbing-related death rates? I doubt it. It's shortsighted and simplistic opinions like yours that convince me that nature probably has a hand in ramping up natural selection a bit. Don't tell me nature couldn't affect things like human sanity. There are plenty of things, including atmospheric content, that can cause you to act very different even if just slightly altered. Nature can also affect our moods greatly, sometimes giving just that little push to make you stress. Nature has a lot more control than you thing, and the planet somehow manages to balance a lot of very important variables while other variable that rely on them are constantly changing and fluctuating. Yes, I'm theorizing. Then again, I think that is all we can do on this topic for now. Anyway, back to gun control. I bet you if everyone had a gun of their own, was trained to use it, and was trained on what to do if you are unarmed and you are attacked by an gunner... Well, I bet you that many Americans would be a lot more respectful. Increasing availability of guns, gun information, and gun-related training would better arm EVERYONE, including people who want to defend themselves and others. Would you know how to properly and accurately fire a pistol? The average American tends to "learn" how from movies, which show improper and unrealistic methods and information. Acting as if guns are inherently bad is acting as if every knife is made for stabbing someone in the face seventeen times after brutally taking advantage of them. Guns are tools, just like anything else. How they are used is reliant on their user. You can choose to shoot in offense or shoot in defense. You can choose what to shoot at and what to shoot. Did you know that you can get various kinds of nonlethal rounds for standard bore guns, and they can be fired without modification to the gun. You do not have to shoot to kill, ever. Extremity shots are often excellent deterrents and ways to incapacitate a violent person. If everyone learned about guns when they were young and were properly educated about death and life and all of that fun stuff, I bet you we would have a safer world... Or at least a safer country. Why? Well, the violent groups and gangs tend to be in the minority. If a guy tries to hold up a bank and every patron pulls a handgun out and aims at him while the teller levels a shotgun his way... Well, I bet you that guy will back off. Either that or he will be taken down. Think about it this way: Violent gun-toting psychopaths know how to use guns. Do you? If you answered no then you need to learn about guns. Go to a shooting range and fire some pistols and rifles. It's education. Banning guns does not remove them from existence. As long as they exist, it is far safer to make sure everyone can use one and realizes the ramifications of doing so. Maybe, as a part of your schooling, you should get shot once in a nonlethal area. I am fairly certain that that would further aid everyone in thinking before they act when it comes to guns. Remember that knowledge is power. Separate yourself from guns and you separate yourself from proper knowledge of them. I doubt anyone who intends to use guns to harm people would follow the rules as well as you when they intend to break rules by harming others. Who wants to bet that if every student in VT had a gun and had basic training with it, that gunner wouldn't have been able to kill all of those people?

Idiota 17 years ago

I'm not even going to further this discussion. You just showed a decent amount of American ignorance, I give you that.

Again, this isn't a discussion topic, it's a topic where you should feel sorry about the victims.

Zombie 17 years ago

"Idiota" said:
I'm not even going to further this discussion. You just showed a decent amount of American ignorance, I give you that.

Again, this isn't a discussion topic, it's a topic where you should feel sorry about the victims.

No, sir. You show American ignorance, despite you living out of America. What does "feeling sorry about the victims" do for anyone? They died. Yes, it is very sad and it is something that no one, I'm sure, wanted to happen.

Feeling sorry for them, however, will not prevent future shootings. Feeling sorry for them, however, will not bring them back. Feeling sorry for them probably won't even put a scratch on the pain, confusion, worry, fear, and despair felt by the friends, family, and relatives of those involved.

You dare to call me ignorant when you disrespect their deaths by essentially saying, "This topic is for mourning, not for discussing how situations like this may be prevented." Brilliant. I'm so thrilled that all we are supposed to do when thirty-three college students are dead, twenty or so more are injured, hundreds suffer from various emotional traumas, and thousands now will live in fear of another guy with a gun coming to send them to the ferryman of the Styx... I'm so thrilled that all we are supposed to do, oh great lord of discussion, is say how "sorry we are" that they are dead.

I don't know about you, but that makes me sick. It makes me despise humanity and modern culture. These people die and it's called a "horrid incident", the gunman is made into some sort of demon god, and all we're supposed to do is go to candlelit vigils and "feel sorry" for people who now no longer exist. No matter that all they had been working for is now dust. No matter that their hopes, dreams, passions, and loves are now all tossed aside. We aren't supposed to discuss what we honestly think can prevent more senseless death like this. We're supposed to lament something that already happened. Something we can't change.

If you live in the past, you are doomed to repeat it. Honour the memories of the dead by saving others from their fate. It only shows you actually care, after all. [quote="Idiota"]I'm not even going to further this discussion. You just showed a decent amount of American ignorance, I give you that. Again, this isn't a discussion topic, it's a topic where you should feel sorry about the victims.[/quote] No, sir. You show American ignorance, despite you living out of America. What does "feeling sorry about the victims" do for anyone? They died. Yes, it is very sad and it is something that no one, I'm sure, wanted to happen. Feeling sorry for them, however, will not prevent future shootings. Feeling sorry for them, however, will not bring them back. Feeling sorry for them probably won't even put a scratch on the pain, confusion, worry, fear, and despair felt by the friends, family, and relatives of those involved. You dare to call me ignorant when you disrespect their deaths by essentially saying, "This topic is for mourning, not for discussing how situations like this may be prevented." Brilliant. I'm so thrilled that all we are supposed to do when thirty-three college students are dead, twenty or so more are injured, hundreds suffer from various emotional traumas, and thousands now will live in fear of another guy with a gun coming to send them to the ferryman of the Styx... I'm so thrilled that all we are supposed to do, oh great lord of discussion, is say how "sorry we are" that they are dead. I don't know about you, but that makes me sick. It makes me despise humanity and modern culture. These people die and it's called a "horrid incident", the gunman is made into some sort of demon god, and all we're supposed to do is go to candlelit vigils and "feel sorry" for people who now no longer exist. No matter that all they had been working for is now dust. No matter that their hopes, dreams, passions, and loves are now all tossed aside. We aren't supposed to discuss what we honestly think can prevent more senseless death like this. We're supposed to lament something that already happened. Something we can't change. If you live in the past, you are doomed to repeat it. Honour the memories of the dead by saving others from their fate. It only shows you actually care, after all.

Idiota 17 years ago

If you want more information detailing this shooting, I suggest consulting wikipedia. There's a big article up about it, and I think you all should read it, no matter where you're from.

Thread locked because we can't handle it.

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