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    Driftmoon ideas

    Nicolai 14 years ago
    An idea for food could be that it would an overlapping bar with health. It could be any color (assuming it's supposed to be that orange bar) with the Red health bar underneath it. As your hunger drops so would your ability to regenerate health(again..assuming it will) past that point of hunger. Not that you would lose the Health that you would already have, but if you were hurt at say 50% hunger, you could only heal back to 50% Health unless you ate something to raise your hunger. To make it so you could have 100% Health since Hunger would always be dropping, maybe when you eat over 100%(while not being able to eat AT 100%) hunger would pause the food bar(aka being full). Honestly though, this may or may not be a good idea depending on how the game plays out.
    Heh..this is my first post on here and it's a nice sized paragraph.
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    ville 14 years ago
    I like that idea, it's simple and doesn't have a negative effect to not eating. Essentially you could eat to gain health, but not eat to kick the asses of all your enemies who would otherwise overpower you. And it's got a realistic side to it as well.

    Uh, I seem to be in one of my positive moods. Can anybody think of why this wouldn't be such a great idea?
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    ZeXLR8er 14 years ago
    Either I'm in a positive mood also, or this sounds like a fantastic, fantastic idea to me as well.

    I would have it work so that your health bar naturally regenerates to the level of your hunger (this would also allow for special items or skills that improve your 'metabolism', increasing the rate of your health regeneration), only when the food bar is higher than the health bar. There should be no negative drain of health to the level of the food bar if the health bar is above the food bar. Health-giving items should still be able to increase your health bar above the level of the food bar, just that once they have done so the health bar will of course no longer be regenerating (as it is now higher than the food bar). The 'freeze' of the food bar for a minute or so at 100% is also a great solution, and makes a lot of sense, both in terms of gameplay and realistically.

    I think, given sufficient in-game explanation, that this provides a perfect simple and positive implementation of a food system, that would fit right into Driftmoon and have a good, realistic side to it. Great work, Nicolai!


    Just a question, Ville: what did you mean by "but not eat to kick the asses of all your enemies who would otherwise overpower you"? I'm not sure how not eating would help you beat any enemy easier than the same fight with a full food bar; wouldn't it just mean you wouldn't regenerate health during the fight?
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    Nicolai 14 years ago
    @ZeXLR8er I think he meant on earlier posts that people's ideas about food giving a boost to stats. In essence it turns food into a spammable super upgrade for boss fights that would allow you to make yourself way stronger if all you do is eat food. As this idea is slightly implemented in certain games such as the WoW "well fed" system it is being looked at by a lot of online games now. But how WoW limits the ability to overpower yourself with said food is you're only allowed one "well fed" stat boost at any time ever. Along with my idea we could possibly add in a small "well fed" system for when your food bar is over say..80%? Maybe this could raise their stats by 1 or two for that time they are "well fed". It would give players another incentive to keep their food bars up other than the health necesity.

    Thanks for the good feedback on my idea btw. It was just sorta a random idea that jumped in my head. Hope I can contribute even more to Driftmoon it looks like it has great potential.

    -Nico
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    MageKing17 14 years ago
    It sounds like an awesome idea. Simple, easy to visually represent, and not hideously annoying.

    Good work, Nicolai!
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    ZeXLR8er 14 years ago
    "Nicolai" said:
    @ZeXLR8er I think he meant on earlier posts that people's ideas about food giving a boost to stats. In essence it turns food into a spammable super upgrade for boss fights that would allow you to make yourself way stronger if all you do is eat food. As this idea is slightly implemented in certain games such as the WoW "well fed" system it is being looked at by a lot of online games now. But how WoW limits the ability to overpower yourself with said food is you're only allowed one "well fed" stat boost at any time ever. Along with my idea we could possibly add in a small "well fed" system for when your food bar is over say..80%? Maybe this could raise their stats by 1 or two for that time they are "well fed". It would give players another incentive to keep their food bars up other than the health necesity.

    Thanks for the good feedback on my idea btw. It was just sorta a random idea that jumped in my head. Hope I can contribute even more to Driftmoon it looks like it has great potential.

    -Nico

    I like this as well. There should be a few, minor positive effects when you are well fed, or have a high food bar. I'm thinking a few extra points of strength, constitution, agility and dexterity (the current positive effects you are feeling due to the state of your food bar could even appear as a pop-up when you hover the mouse over the food bar, something like this: hover at 50%: "Hunger: content. +1 Constitution". Hover at 75%: "Hunger: satisfied. +1 Strength, +2 Constitution". Hover at 100%: Hunger: full. +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +1 Agility +2 Constitution", or even hover at 20%: "Hunger: feeling peckish. -1 Strength" or similiar.)
    This whole idea again makes sense in-game and realistically, which are the two filters I think any of these suggestions should be judged by.


    (Ville, can you please if possible move these last posts into another or a new thread? They don't really fit this topic.)
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    Venom31 14 years ago
    "ZeXLR8er" said:
    I like this as well. There should be a few, minor positive effects when you are well fed, or have a high food bar. I'm thinking a few extra points of strength, constitution, agility and dexterity (the current positive effects you are feeling due to the state of your food bar could even appear as a pop-up when you hover the mouse over the food bar, something like this: hover at 50%: "Hunger: content. +1 Constitution". Hover at 75%: "Hunger: satisfied. +1 Strength, +2 Constitution". Hover at 100%: Hunger: full. +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity, +1 Agility +2 Constitution", or even hover at 20%: "Hunger: feeling peckish. -1 Strength" or similiar.)
    This whole idea again makes sense in-game and realistically, which are the two filters I think any of these suggestions should be judged by.
    Talking about realism here... Fully fed and overfed states have drawbacks as well as poorly fed. Will you argue?
    Then come to the effects. Just as Nicolai said, it should fit in the game. To do it, this feeding system should complement all gameplay "tactics" well. I'll explain.
    In famous System Shock 2, there well cyber-implants for your character. Each of them added smth just like our food bonuses, but temporarily (needed energy that eventually went down to 0 over time). Since the player needed to carry some [in some cases much] stuff in the inventory, Strength Boost implant was welcome (added more carrying space in inv). BUT. Since there were many points in game where player had to fight, run, and bla-bla-bla, it was pretty easy to forget about the implant's energy. So when it reached 0, the implant seized working and if your char carried smth in those additional slots, it dropped to the ground. So, what do we see? We need to constatntly carry some N items. And Strength Boost gives you this bonus temporarily. Same goes for SS2 Psionic's spells to increase Strength. This was USELESS. Mind it, useless. While inserting Research Assistant implant allowed you to save some pump-up points (there - cybermodules) for something more valued by you if you never want to pump up Research but need it (e.g. by walkthrough).
    Concerning Driftmoon this means: Strength increases attack damage (for example). This is needed to faster kill critters, so to take less damage, so to save healing potions for later, so you don't run out of them in critical situation, so to survive, so to have a chance to walk through the game (final goal). But in later versions of preview, I don't remember raising Constition at all... Imbalance? Maybe not, it's just an example. I hope you understand what I mean because ATM I can't describe it better.
    And yeah, it concerns D-dev, not modding. So please... Well, some corner of it touches modding but... as much as one programming stage planning touches the next one's
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    ZeXLR8er 14 years ago
    You've got some good points, Venom. Thinking about it again, I think it may actually work better if all of the levels of the food bar had both positive and negative skill effects. So, full food bar could give you improved strength and constitution, but decrease agility and dexterity. As the food bar decreases to about 50%, you would have improved agility and dexterity at the expense of strength and constitution. And as the bar decreases below 50%, you first lose the increases in agility and dexterity, then as you approach 0%, have decreased stats for all four strength, constitution, agility and dexterity. Not a large decrease in stats, mind you; I'm thinking only -1 or maybe -2 points, so just enough to not radically impact gameplay yet still give the player an incentive to keep a relatively full food bar. It would also allow players to eat 'tactically': eat till full for scenarios that require high constitution and strength but not so much speed or dexterity, or wait till the character is not full for scenarios that require rapid movement.
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    Venom31 14 years ago
    Yeah, like that. And again, only if it comes in handy to the player (to make it fun, not annoying, as Ville wants, and I do too). Adding a wait/sleep ability would be great to complement this.
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    ville 14 years ago
    With kicking asses by eating I mean that in earlier versions all of the food gave you a health bonus. It was like health potions from Diablo and similar games. And I hate the mechanic that you can go into battle and eat health potions, it kills any tension battles could ever have. But removing the health bonus mechanic from food meant that the food was all but useless, until now!

    As for the food bar having other effects, I'm thinking it could be too complex for the vanilla version. I like the idea that it regenerates you up to the food bar, it's simple and easy to explain, and doesn't force you to eat if you don't want to.
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    Anne 14 years ago
    This is definately a good idea, I agree! It seems like a sensible and easy-to grasp way to use food in Driftmoon, and representing hunger overlapping the health bar should make it quite obvious to connect the two. Good thinking Nicolai!

    I'm not sure yet what I think about the multiple (complex positive/negative) effects for the hunger level. They might allow different tactics if well implemented, but as Ville said, it might be a little difficult for a casual gamer to get the hang of these. Well, these are nice ideas as well - at least for a more complex mod, if not for the base game!
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    Venom31 14 years ago
    If you've read my post with link to some gamedev rules of some kind, you may have noticed that making a casual game implies some rules that would be somewhat mututally exclusive with the ones for non-casual ones. Be sure to have a strict seeing on that and please share it with us.
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    Danwood 14 years ago
    This is a great idea, i really like the survival stuff like hunger/hypotermia, as seen in Notrium! (Also a sleep need would be immersive imho)

    I was thinking about a 2 sided hunger bar 100% and -100%: when you are 50% to 100% the bonus is the same, i would tell +1% health every 10 seocnds, and the negative effect (-100%) is dubled respect the positive one (more realistic!) so -2% health every 10 secs (just an example!) and it's scalable (ex: -25% hunter = -0,5% health every 10 seocnds) the fact that the positive one is the same from 50 to 100 is in order to dont force the player to eat constantly to keep the higher bonus


    i dont know if someone has already suggested this in the same way, sorry in that case


    BTW AWESOME WORK VILLE!
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    ville 14 years ago
    Thanks Danwood!
    I think there shouldn't be any negative effects on not eating in Driftmoon, as I don't see it as a survival game as such. On recent playes of Notrium I've disliked the hunger-dying as well, though it fits the chaotic survival atmosphere pretty well.
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    LunaticNeko 14 years ago
    "ville" said:
    Thanks Danwood!
    I think there shouldn't be any negative effects on not eating in Driftmoon, as I don't see it as a survival game as such. On recent playes of Notrium I've disliked the hunger-dying as well, though it fits the chaotic survival atmosphere pretty well.
    A player can't keep track of everything himself. So I agree with no-ill-effects for not eating.

    For Notrium, I think it is fine that players are to be aware of hunger and temperature. But this does not apply for Driftmoon, where other factors like character development plays role.

    Food could, however, give small regenerating health effect, and special food (like certain mushrooms) might grant temporary buffs.

    That's a suggestion though, I'm not the Chairman here.

    And yeah, I'm returning to my "home", now universally known as LunaticNeko the Computer Engineering Undergraduate. Maybe if it's possible to make a name change here it would be nice.
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    E_net4 14 years ago
    That's pretty much the desired effect.

    Also, you're back! Awesome!
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    ville 14 years ago
    Welcome back Thaimodz! PM me if you want the name changed.

    I've actually coded the food system now. Basically if you're hurt, it regenerates you slowly if you have food. The food doesn't go away if you're not hurt, so in a sense it's quite unrealistic. But it's less stuff to micromanage, and makes eating food more useful. And now it enables you to fully heal from encounters with enemies - making the game less of a survival game and more of an RPG. But I've got to put in less food now...
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    Pete 14 years ago
    So this is the closest thread Ive found to a general questions one. Here goes: is there any way to add a new area to the map without having to mess with the other ones in order to unlock it? Because that would be nice. Same goes for editing the locations file, whatever the name is.
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    ville 14 years ago
    Can you rephrase the question?
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    I was thinking it would be nice if the dialogue boxes would show us a portrait of who's speaking. I don't know how feasible creating the portraits themselves would be for Driftmoon (I don't know how many characters you have/how many you might want to have with portraits), but at least the option for modding would be cool. Moreso, it would probably be best if the portraits weren't directly connected to the character - so that it would be possible to use several portraits for the same character (say, for facial expressions) or some miscellaneous pic that would illustrate what's going on or something else or other.

    EDIT: Ugh. Edited for clarity.
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    MageKing17 13 years ago
    "Crazy" said:
    I was thinking it would be nice if the dialogue boxes would show us a portrait of who's speaking. I don't know how feasible it would be for Driftmoon (I don't know how many characters you have/how many you might want to have with portraits), but at least the option for modding would be cool. Moreso, if the portraits weren't directly connected to the character - so that it would be possible to use several portraits for the same character (say, for facial expressions) or some miscellaneous pic that would illustrate what's going on or something else or other.
    I like this idea. Lots of games use multiple character portraits for conveying emotion through expression, and it allows a lot more subtle information to be conveyed to the player.
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    Oh, I already forgot - a system to allow the player character to change in appearance and other physical traits as he levels up (if that isn't already in - again, i haven't preordered). So that the necromancer in mod x would slowly be corrupted by the forces at work, etc.
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    ville 13 years ago
    The portrait system has been planned, it's not a tough one to code. The vanilla version will probably not use that, since I don't have time to draw all the characters - so I will likely add this after the initial release.

    There is already a system to change the appearance of any character permanently using scripts. Actually all of the human characters in the game are clones of the player, with their appearance altered.
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    Cool, all of the ideas i have have already been implemented or planned.

    It's the magic game! It does what you want before you even know you want it!
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    MageKing17 13 years ago
    "Crazy" said:
    It's the magic game! It does what you want before you even know you want it!
    That's because Ville is just that awesome.
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    Anne 13 years ago
    "MageKing17" said:
    "Crazy" said:
    It's the magic game! It does what you want before you even know you want it!
    That's because Ville is just that awesome.
    What a nice attitude you have: I completely agree!
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    You know, there's a videogame trope that's always somewhat bothered me. And, uh, now seems like an excellent time to talk about it because the alternative would be to continue translating this mindnumbingly corporatese uni material (A bunch of students are paying me, a college dropout, to help them with their exams. My life is very irony-resistant.) Some ranting in grey.

    Anyway, the reason it's bothered me is that I've always been yapping about how silly the whole standard fantasy setting (a depressing term in and of itself) because so much of it is based on early pulp literature of which so much is based on false victorian historic research of which so much is based on medieval fantasy which yet still is based on a romanticized ideal of combat & society. Basically, that taking a step back and looking at everything from a more historical perspective and building on that (I always end up at Mount & Blade for some reason) is a really good thing, that games need to base their weapons much more on realities and drop at once silly things like axes and swords being of comparable usefulness, but with different pros and cons.

    And the simple response is always "But Crazy! We're trying to have fun and awesome things and not be dragged down by what would be realistic but boring."

    And yet. Individual arrows. Why on earth do games have individual arrows? What possible purpose does this serve? I've heard of both Driftmoon and Skyrim run into exactly the same problems of arrows being hard to manage, both have turned (as I last remember Ville speaking) to the "arrows are rare and expensive" solution. Which means that for the player, ammo management becomes important. Which means that the player is going have to try to anticipate what the game is going to throw at him. And good game design should mean that the levels will keep on surprising. The two ideas sort of collide head-on and end with less fun for archers.

    So again, why keep the individual arrows? Why not just have a quiver with an endless supply of some type of arrows? Because it would be nice to have specialist magic arrows? Then why not combine limited magic quivers with normal endless quivers? I cannot think of a single reason.

    Sorry for the rantiness, it just kind of bugs me.
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    TNN17 13 years ago
    "Crazy" said:
    So again, why keep the individual arrows? Why not just have a quiver with an endless supply of some type of arrows? Because it would be nice to have specialist magic arrows? Then why not combine limited magic quivers with normal endless quivers? I cannot think of a single reason.

    So.... like Dragon Age's archery? I'd agree with this, it was common practice for archers to make their own arrows if I remember my European military history, this can be abstracted into having a limitless quiver of standard, wooden, arrows.

    "Crazy" said:
    Games need to base their weapons much more on realities and drop at once silly things like axes and swords being of comparable usefulness, but with different pros and cons.

    I have to disagree here however - an axe and a sword largely are of comparable usefulness. They cut things, those things then die or are disabled and removed as a threat. It seriously doesn't matter to an artery if the weapon used was a rapier or a halbard, nor does a blow to the skull differentiate between a ball mace or a spiked morning star. Whilst there certainly different uses of these weapons (a rapier has a very different use in combat and method of applying lethal force to a battle axe's more.... "extremity-focussed" uses), any perceived disparity in functionality beyond those provided by basic gross physical properties of weight, bladedness and functional length are illusory.
    Indeed if realism were applied to weaponry then the biggest problem would be differentiating it enough to have sufficient reason for its inclusion; even magic swords are of debatable use when a strike in the right area is just as lethal with a mundane sharpened stick (the same sharpened stick also responsible for human dominance of the planet), and all those things are also rendered moot by the existence of the crossbow or longbow, since reality has definitively proven the old adage "ranged beats melee".
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    "TNN17" said:
    *many things*
    I know nothing of Dragon Age's archery. And yes, medieval archers tended often to make their own arrows, though even they needed premade arrowheads, so the whole no-separate-arrows thing has absolutely no basis in reality. It relies entirely on the willing suspenion of disbelief. I'd compare it most to weapon degradation, really.

    As for the whole "all weapons are made equal" thing - yes, an artery does indeed care little as to whether the thing opening it is a blade, arrow or particularly obstinate spoon. But I did in particular mean swords and axes handled that are handled with one hand (the latter of which was more of a viking thing in the early medieval era and hardly existed at all in the high and late eras) as this is how games often display them. And the reason they are a world apart is not their ability to damage (in which neither can lay a finger on polearms), but their handling. A sword is considerably quicker to handle as well has having a longer reach and the ability to stab. This is not a small difference. In reenactment combat (viking age, eastern style), we've even used it as a handicap - if one of the combatants is much better than the other, the weaker is given a sword and the stronger an axe.

    As for the "strike to the right area with a stick" bit, then no. Armor is an integral part of medieval combat. It gave birth to the defining moment of medieval combat: the joust. Heavily armored knightly cavalry was both fast and essentially unkillable in the early/high ages. If one of the battling sides came out stronger on top in the joust, they were pretty much able to pick off the opposing force at leisure (I'm exaggerating somewhat here). I remember distinctly an account of a battle, the name of which escapes me, in which heavy French cavalry charged into a pike column and the casualties on either sides were described as negligible.
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    TNN17 13 years ago
    "Crazy" said:
    I know nothing of Dragon Age's archery. And yes, medieval archers tended often to make their own arrows, though even they needed premade arrowheads, so the whole no-separate-arrows thing has absolutely no basis in reality. It relies entirely on the willing suspenion of disbelief. I'd compare it most to weapon degradation, really.

    Hm. Yes, you're right, I wasn't accounting for arrowheads (got it into my head that the underequipped/isolated English army under Henry V ended up stuck with wooden arrows somehow). Well, I'm still all for it - arrowheads, unlike shafts, I would assume to be recyclable from corpses or littered around the place. This all introduces a level of involvement that isn't necessary for an enjoyable playing experience, so just abstract it into "yes, you have arrows".

    Dragon Age, for the record, has each bow come with an unlimitted quiver of arrows and "special" arrows such as flaming tip, master-crafted, and other special arrows being limitted and highly expensive.

    "Crazy" said:
    Stuff.

    Alright, thanks for clarifying, I'd agree that treating an axe exactly as you would a sword is silly (it would be awesome to see implemented somewhere the Pict three-person axe/spear/shield tactics though). Swords are a more versatile weapon, and can be used closer-in, but against a heavily armoured target, an axe was the go-to weapon for penentration (wasn't a point on top also a feature on some/many axes? I know one was basically pointed at every extremity), these are exactly what I'd consider "comparable usefulness with tradeoffs" however. They're both still weapons after all.

    For the stick comment I was referring less to a full-plate wearing knight and most any lightly or unarmoured target - even for full plate, it's less a case of "this reduces damage to me" and more like a binary state - either the armour is working and you're fine (maybe a bit battered), or it's been hit by something it didn't work against and you're dead. Even weapons that could not possibly take down a heavily armoured knight.... sometimes did. This is less about "damage" and more about "penetration".
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    Crazy 13 years ago
    Enrsldymion pointed out on IRC that archery is kind of different in Driftmoon and I should probably preorder (slowly starting to find a touch of work here and there now) to make any suggestions.

    (it would be awesome to see implemented somewhere the Pict three-person axe/spear/shield tactics though)
    Yep, it would. Mount & Blade is probably closest to being able to present mixed unit formations, but as of right now, it's still some ways off. There's a new expansion coming out soon that might be able to present pike & shot formations, but that's just speculation right now.

    Swords are a more versatile weapon, and can be used closer-in, but against a heavily armoured target, an axe was the go-to weapon for penentration (wasn't a point on top also a feature on some/many axes? I know one was basically pointed at every extremity)
    You're right about the pointed axes, but that was a polearm feature (and a feature of many various polearms), which were indeed the go-to-weapons for penetration. But they were not, in any way, comparable to swords or any other small single handed weapon because they filled a completely different role. Many polearm-carrying troops also carried a sword as backup. The specialist-formation-primary-weapon-and-generalist-single-combat-secondary-weapon thing was pretty standard of medieval combat. And the sword was the best secondary weapon there was, the only reason everyone didn't have one was because they were rather difficult to make.

    You're also right about the whole armour penetration thing being a binary thing (D&D) and not a degree of protection (almost everything else), but plate and mail armour weren't the only kind of armour available. Even early medieval levymen (and professional footsoldiers) would occasionally have asome form of padded armor. And padded armor in not to be disregarded - that shit is effective, it's an awful shame that there is barely any reflection of it in modern gaming. And as time went on, the armour of the common soldier improved as well. And yes, these armors do not cover all of the body as the knlightly armors did, but even some coverage meant that that you can attack your oponents head, shoulders, arms and thighs while he can only aim for your head and lower legs. In combat, this is major reach and movement advantage.

    If you're saying that sometimes, weapons that shouldn't pierce armor did, then yes, that did happen. But I return to the example of the late medieval French cavalry charge. One side was armed with lances, the other with pikes, weapons specifically designed to take down heavily armored targets and charging knights, respectively. And yet the losses were few on either side. While your armour being penetrated is binary, better armor means lowers the chance of your armor being penetrated. And even a basic gambeson can offer suprisingly effective protection against blows, pierces and cuts, particularly because the blows, pierces and cuts in actual combat are not comparable to the ones in, say, cutting tests because the guy you're hitting kind of wants to not get hit. Have a gander.
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    TNN17 13 years ago
    A small point I'll clarify - D&D is along the lines I was thinking of, but injuries are more than just D&D level of binary - in the video you posted (some very nice stuff by the way) you see something like a strike to the wrist, and that's it, if the armour didn't hold up, you're either sporting a stump, bleeding (one of the proposed methods of victory against any opponent is through blood loss), or you've suffered serious damage and can no longer handle your weapon correctly.

    In these circumstances, damage itself is arguably an unrealistic abstraction in a situation where death or grievous long term bodily harm are common. I certainly wouldn't say it was a bad one in the aim of "fun" though.

    Speaking along these lines however, something Ville mentioned on Notrium was the idea of an injury system, disabling "equip slots" (or their driftmoon equivalent) until you could find treatment. Would something like this add tension to encounters, or just prove to be a needless complication?
    One very possible effect of different weapon types is just what sort of injuries they cause (Fire magic burns off all your body hair! -1 Charisma!). A flanged(?) mace, for example, would break bones even through armour, an axe (two-handed in keeping with their regular use, was used oft. to cut at limbs) causes wide and brutal injuries, whilst a dinky little rapier causes small but numerous wounds. This sort of difference alongside gross physical properties makes for a more interesting choice over "it has better DPS".
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    madscientist 13 years ago
    I would like the game having ingredients for water walking, an entire level under water, summoning allies (some weak minions).
    Cheats for summoning (friends AND foes) and for freezing in time everything but yourself would be awesome (BIG battles).
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    ville 13 years ago
    At one time we actually did have plans for an underwater level. It would have been accessible with the help of a beached whale. But we had no idea how it would have fitted into the main plot, so we've left it out for the moment, maybe in an expansion...

    I've been thinking about a simple summoning spell, possibly a figurine that could be animated once a day. Just have to decide which creature.
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    Venom31 13 years ago
    Among them animals, a crocodile is one of the easiest to draw from top-down view
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